Is there a claiming ladder?

[Orb Farms]

I dropped 6 horses from allowance to $20k claimers to $12k claimers, all WINNERS this season as an experiment at those levels into dollar value claimers, and ALL 6 lost, and only 2 finished 2nd.

Is there a claiming ladder? This makes so little sense. how do you win a $20k claimer, and then finish 4th in a dollar claimer 4 times, with 4 different horses?

Curious to hear your explanation and response, because my assumption was that these would be no-brainer wins.

Runaway stables claimed 2 horses that would have been 1/9 at post time, and probably 1/19.....and both finished 4th?

I am not upset, just a little puzzled, and i feel bad for the new owner/claimer, based on workouts, race performance, and competition level.

All the best,

Orb

[South Jersey Stables]

No.

There's the answer you honestly earned with the information provided lol. Provide horse names, etc, so maybe someone can look and help? I looked at yesterdays race and saw a dollar horse claimed by runaway, a first time starter...I looked the day before and saw no horses claimed in the dollar races from you.

You've been here long enough to know how the game works. Just because a horse is running at 20k doesn't mean it's a "20k" horse. Especially when it comes to 2 year olds. If you value a horse 6k based on workout time alone, have it there, and it wins against people that had moved horses up from 3k, does that mean it's a "6k" horse? Or does it mean it just beat better horses that were too high up on the food chain? Does it mean other owners undervalue their horse and have it running lower than it should be? Could it be because since people are gelding 90% of their colts that no one wants to claim a constant 6k winner that might even be able to compete at 20k? On top of ALL OF THIS, what are the posts/jocks/insts/meters/heart of every horse in that race and were any stuck wide?

The real answer Orb is that, yes, you can win at 20k and lose in 1k. Because it all depends on what else is in those races. Unlike real racing people can just willy nilly enter horses wherever they choose. There's no risk of cost loss for a wasted race or rebound physical rebound time, etc. A wasted entry in real life could cost you a month and hundreds of dollars, in this game it costs your horse 3 days and maybe a buck fifty.

I have a lot of horses racing at $1 that were winning at 20, some even 30 just a year ago. And a few of them are only 3 at the moment. When you see someone buy 20 creates, or breed 30 horses in a week, what do you think happens? Especially when this is repeated across multiple barns. Every horse goes down on the pecking order. If you horse was a good 40k horse and suddenly 5 good stakes horses come into the game because someone dropped tons of money (which you've said you've done before, so you know what I mean), that means 5 stakes horses get cut off the bottom and move down in class to 40. Suddenly your 3 year old 40k winner can't win and needs to drop. But now there are 20k horses better than before because these owners who added all these horses can afford to drop good horses to steal claimers. After all, they just added 30 in a week. So now you can't beat the 20k either. It happens over and over again and it's just how it goes.

Again, you of all people should not have to have this question answered for you. I think you're extremely intelligent but I think you like to ask these questions to maybe somehow get the site to admit some fault that doesn't exist? I've dropped horses and won fantastically. I've dropped horses and watched them not sniff a place until they go down 3 levels. You've raced thousands of races and point to 6 horses to ask if there's some magical ladder built into the system? You're an asset to the site. I like the way you do critical and analytical thinking. But sometimes you need to take a deep breath and think things through

[Orb Farms]

Good morning jersey,

To some extent, to be brutally honest there is some elements of truth in your premise...but first remember these horses are no longer mine....I really only lose a few bonus credits by not winning....so money is not my objective.

These are new 2 year olds....2 or 3 races under their belts....so only workouts and 2-3 races to go by....so I give u that. ....but I did this intentionally to see if they could win by 4 or 5 lengths. ....and they faltered mightily, after 3 to 4 step up wins in rather large fields....then lose in fields half the size of the win race at times.

In the real horses, you and I both know that a horse going from Arapahoe park for a 1k claimer is really up against it even at a modest place like sam houston park to run a 20k claimer.

So, while I understand there are multiple factors..I speak of horses who beat other horses who also ran 96 97 and even 98sr.....and then experimentally drop in for 1k and not hit the board.

I will provide some example horses.....some are actually claimed and some unclaimed and dead

Look deeper into my premise....my intentions are not always evil...I just - if we had a wish list- would ask somehow (and I am not smart enough to have the answer)...to have a rich and vibrant, LOGICAL claiming ladder..... nothing in my humble opinion would do more good than this..claiming is 70% of thoroughbred racing

Utopian? Maybe. But no evil intentions. I take pride when my horses get claimed and they win on the way out..to give the new owner confidence!.....I guess in hindsight it's a blessing because NOT winning retains an extra race condition

Thanks for your response jersey......while you perhaps were a little harsh in your assessment, I cannot deny some elements to truth to your analysis...just missed my main point.....the rest fairly spot-on

Good luck,
Orb

[Orb Farms]

Oh, and never again would I question the integrity of Lone. I did 2 or 3 seasons ago, but he is perhaps the most honest and level guy I know...I DEFEND instances when this is called into question......something that was far from my intent.

Orb

[South Jersey Stables]

But speed ratings are bunk for the most part. Basing a horse off speed ratings is no-no #1 on the DD logic list. The speed rating is how close you came to the record. This is a bad way to rate horses for 2 reasons. #1, because in sprints you come closer to the record than in routes more often. Just because there's so much less time for things to happen or spread out. A 4f 1k will almost always have a better speed rating than an allowance level router. #2 race times are sometimes influenced more by who is in the race and how it happens than the physical characteristics of a horse. It's why records at 6f can be broken by claimers and stakes routes can be won at a 95 rating. If my horse I value at 12k runs at 20k, but against horses than really should be valued at 3k, I might break the record at 20k. But then the next 20k race when I'm against proper competition I might only run a 95 rating. And of course all of this is compounded by post/meters/jock/instruction/positioning.

My assessment was only harsh because I genuinely think you know all of this. But sometimes when it doesn't seem logical you see it as wrong or faulty. And that's ok! You're an analytical dude. There are just entirely too many variables to put a black and white approach to the game. Some may think that's bad, but I think it's great. Without the variables we'd just let the best horse win every time and there'd be no fun to it. Just like in real life the best horse doesn't always win. Granted this is a game and can never match real life but it tries it's best, despite the flaws and limitations, to come close.

I used to rage all the time about stuff in my head. And sometimes I get so pissed I can't help but vent it out in the forum. I've managed to find 2 or 3 people on facebook I can privately do that to and they talk me down off the ledge a bit until I can level myself and get back to being focused. It's easy to see things as slanted or wrong from ones own perspective. I'm just trying to give it to you from an outside look and let you know all seems fine and normal even though frustrating at times.

[Orb Farms]

I appreciate your thoughts and time jersey.....you're one of the good ones around here sir....truly. I voted for you last season as the norm award in my opinion cannot run contrary to all of the tens and 20's of posts about "IT takes many seasons to get up.to speed and build a stable....you put your time in....paid your dues and I was saddened to see what happened but also happy for Greeko and all the energy and positive and commitment in time and resources he brought last season .......it's just a shame you both could not have been co-winners.

Thanks again, and belated. Congrats to both u and Greeko for your nomination and his win as that is in my judgment a prestigious and highly regarded award. GREEKO should be proud.....but so should you

Typing on a smart phone sucks


Orb

[Greeko Holdem]

Thanks Orb... for some kind words.

As for the claiming ladder.. I believe there is a hidden morale in these cartoon horses... dropping down horses into lower level races doesn't always work because finishing 3rd or 4th in certain races can still give these horses a morale boost and can and should be stepping up in class instead of dropping horses into low level races.

Remember hidden morale is the key to the secret combination.

[Getting Lucky Lodge]

No there is no true claiming ladder, because horse values are not high enough to enforce that. Most stables could care less if they lose a 20k gelding for 3k, they let him go and move on. I would say the same thing doesn't happen in real life, but in CA racing it certainly does. Since we are so isolated any downturn can easily cut the value of your horse in half. I experienced this personally with my filly when Hollywood Park closed- owners started dropping horses down in class like crazy trying to unload them, and my 30k purchase was suddenly an 8k horse if I kept her CA. So it goes.

What is bothering me more this season is apparently there are no jockey instructions either. I have had horses on (R) rush to the lead by several lengths in sprints. I have had several I set to (S)- which to me means run a constant speed during the race- turn in 4f times of 46 flat, even though horses that can run a half that quick and finish are incredibly rare. I have been 3, 4, and 5 wide more times than I can count, regardless of jockey instruction. My win rate went from 20+% last season to 6% this season, and I have been here waaaaaay too long to hear about how it is trainer inexperience. Horses that raced in quals last year and did well cannot hit the board in cheap claimers this season- even with top jockeys and the same setup as last season. I've killed off somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of mine, and am stepping back majorly with the rest until things begin to make more sense. Haven't seen a season like this yet in all the time I have been here.

[Orb Farms]

I feel your pain GLL, but you certainly get the benefit of the doubt, being the "winningest" trainer in the history of the game. I have to tread carefully,as my words and even implications are always run thru a supercomputer for potential double-entendre and innuendo.

I would argue that "just when we learn the most incredibly complex internet game I have ever played, I seem to regress in phases......Maybe that's the best way of putting it.

As far as the running wide thing, I will agree that I have had some of the most adventurous rides, and I know that at the end of the day, this is to some extent a "meaningless" simulation of actual computer results (though our entertainment dollars rely heavily on watching good races!), it does not make it any less painful when a horse has a CLEAR rail path, and CHOOSES to stay 3 wide for over 1:10 in a 9 furlong race.......or when Velazquez has such a CLEAR 3-path WIDE-open, you could drive a TRUCK through it, and instead he goes to the rail, trapped behind another horse.......with 1 furlong to go?

But the ride of the season belongs to Rose, in the Create FINALS for me, where Orblivion took it on the chin, finishing 12th dead last. Rose REFUSED the early and AVAILABLE rail 3 times during the race, and THEN took the rail when he should have been moving OUT,,,,My best Create colt who is right at $200k earnings was ridden by a bugboy it appeared, disguised as Rose!

08/25/2016	Race #39	20:00	Santa Anita DD	6f	Dirt fst	Create Challenge Sprint Series WFA-Finals Final

Win some, lose some I guess......But in the simulation, I want a competent ride please!

Orb

[Winning420]

there is no true claiming ladder I mean 4 seasons ago when I was racing 15-25 races a day I mean records were being broken in 2k claimers by horses that couldn't compete in 10k claimers but were setting track records in 2k races. So in a nutshell, no there is no reasonable claiming ladder. I Have never been able to figure it out but yes I too have had allowance horses lose badly in low level claimers and then I put them back in allowance and they win.

[Buddha Farms]

You guys need to let Q speak his mind, he has spent a lot of coin here. Plus it's the funniest stuff on the forums.

[Getting Lucky Lodge]

You guys need to let Q speak his mind, he has spent a lot of coin here. Plus it's the funniest stuff on the forums.

This was Orb's thread and Q hasn't weighed in, but I have no problem with hearing Q speak.

[Orb Farms]

OMG concussion got yet another great jockey ride. I just haven't seen anything like it in my time here......It's not anything but bad luck, I get it.....but these are IMPOSSIBLY bad rides.......Some of the dumbest decisions....

Funny, even having him on steady, I would not think he would go out 9th of 12 horses?????

He's probably the fastest horse on the site on push or JD, so on Steady, the numbers below suggest more than THAT start!!! I could be wrong

Dirt fst 6F Steady 21.91 44.61 1:08.76

Tearing my hair out, one hair at a time!!!! GRRRRR!

Even his 7f RELAX is faster than that opening quarter he ran!

7.0f	22.29 45.14 1:21.91 Relax

GLL, Maybe the arrogant Jockey's Guild gathered for a meeting, and instructions this year are that the jocks are to ignore the owners...... something happened in that jockey meeting, where 1 or 2 jocks used to "ignore" the trainer, and now they ALL ignore us heh heh

I have lost SO much money in races this season, 4 or 5 of my 48 wins are "big races", the rest small claimers and small creates.....way WAY more net loss than my comfort level, so I tried something drastic....I bought a stable to mix things up for improvement. I figured it was a good investment either way, as breeders can still bring me money coming in during this stretch. This MUST work........I need not finish the statement.

75 breeders, 143 new horses.....Hall of Fame bloodlines EVERYWHERE.....Maybe things will change.



Orb

[Atm Stables]

I hear you orb just ran dead last in both juvy divisions of the championship series off two poor rides then drew death sentence 3 pole for all important create milion ticket to finish 3rd with no run whatsoever despite being two wide in 4 horse race with what should be a nice create. Rant over.

[Orb Farms]

Have you noticed when a horse is in "that perfect position" to gear up to pass by the CLEARLY tiring horses, and then all of a sudden the rush to the front that ALREADY started just sort of "peters" out with 60 yards to go? That's my biggest rant/frustration..... So many times this season I was in the PERFECT POUNCE, and the horse even STARTED the rush, then just fizzled right up just before passing the horses.....THIS is something I have not seen very often, in addition to the boatloads of wide rides, and jockey instruction ignoring.

I am afraid to enter big races, I am literally scared to nominate into them. But we must enter them to recoup some investment for our better horses.....it's so tough to manage!

Ok I am better too..... Therapeutic!

One thing that I would assume has NOT changed. If a jockey is Advertised as A+, and something changed, then that rating needs to change. I see some trainers moving off the big jocks of the last few seasons with success these last 6-7 days.......Go back 6-7 days and take a peek at the winners of the BIG races, and look at the jocks. Yes some traditional, and some not?

Do the jockey ratings require monthly adjustments? Just a thought....I wouldn't want to select a jock deemed A+ if he/she is not A+. A bad stretch of a few days is one thing, but not all season to be advertised as A+ for what is supposed to be a "virtual Year". So, can admin perhaps address this please?

Thanks guys,

Orb