Teach the non-beginner/non-expert

[Brown Star Stables]

I am slightly past the rookie and nowhere near the expert. The willingness of those tried and true to help is my second favorite thing about this site. Call these the top 10 substitute teacher questions:
1) When do you retire a female horse? I've been told that they tend to decline after 4 years but some older Mares hold several records?
2) How important are the bloodlines of a horse vs. their speed rating? Obviously it's best to have both, but when you don't... Which one is more important?
3) Initial training of yearlings should be held at what distance? At what distance should you use equipment? Should you try Steady vs Push at all distances?
4) Is it necessary to try random jockeys in training?
5) At what age do male horses fail to age like wine - when do they seem to decline?
6) Besides Fitness and Speed Meters, is their a third most important?
7) If you have many horses in your stable, is it best to manage them by their fitness level - ie. train them once they reach an 82+ Fitness and rest them if they don't?
8) Can a horse run better with jockey decides than a specific command and why?
9) As far as the CAL track vs The BEL track, is their anything the intermediate owner should know about races vs training?
10) Should an owner record each individual horses training meter increases or is there a better rule of thumb? - I always train on the BEL - longest distance - dirt. Is there a method to the madness on training? Should you train each horse individually? Should you multi-train all?

I know... way too many questions. I work for Toyota and their theory is that you can give competitors the recipe, but the cake will taste different based on their own shortcomings. Teach me how to bake the cake...

[Brown Star Stables]

If you don't ask, how can you expect to recieve?

[Racing Downs]

Wow!!answer Those Questions Or Drink,umm

[Star Of The Desert]

I'll take a stab at this one.

I can only speak for myself and the way I run my stable, others might have different ideas.

1) I retire my horses (male and female) when I feel they are no longer competitve at the level they are accustomed to running. I tend to race my horses a lot longer than a lot of other players.

2) Never looked at bloodlines vs. speed ratings but my guess is speed ratings would take precedence over bloodlines. Bloodlines might indicate a good horse, consistently high speed ratings are proof of a good horse.

3) They can be trained at any distance, you should try all equipment, and I try all jock instructions on all horses, the main thing is to be consistent, if you start training at 5f go through all equip, instructions, surfaces at 5f, and use the same jock all the way through.

4) I always use the same jock in training until all prefs have been found, then I test different jockies.

5) Not sure there is a set age. I have noticed that the majority of my horses seem to improve from 3-4 but they start losing form at different ages, right now in my stable I still have about 5 6 y.o.'s running and winning.

6) Don't know.

7) I train all my horses as close to 100 on all meters as possible, it is the only way to truly guauge their times.

8) Yes, but I don't know why.

9) Cal track times seem to be slower than Bel.

10) I have a large stable so for expedience I use multi-train (dirt 1/38m lpg) to get meters as close to 100. ome horse might need more attention than others, so those horses get trained individually.


Hope this helps.

Burky

[Getting Lucky Lodge]

Hi Paulo,

I would have expected John to impress you with his knowledge instead of giving you the kiss off. You just can't get good hired help these days. Anyway, let me tackle your top 10 but it comes with my usual disclaimer that I don't know everything about the game just what I have experienced:


1) When do you retire a female horse? I've been told that they tend to decline after 4 years but some older Mares hold several records?

How long is a piece of string? There is no answer to this. GLL races its fillies/mares no matter what age, until they aren't competitive any more or rather than drop them too low into the claimers. We raced DUEL as a 6yo before retiring her and FAREWELL CHAMP is edging up towards that age. I prefer 4yo+ as broodmares but there is no evidence to suggest that a 3yo filly isn't going to be a good broodmare. All I can suggest is to keep racing them while they are competitive, earning their keep because there are no guarantees that a good race mare will become a good broodmare.

2) How important are the bloodlines of a horse vs. their speed rating?
Obviously it's best to have both, but when you don't... Which one is more important?

There is no correlation between race times and breeding.

3) Initial training of yearlings should be held at what distance? At what distance should you use equipment? Should you try Steady vs Push at all distances?

Choose whatever distance you are comfortable with. GLL runs them over 6f on push (120lbs colts, 118lbs fillies) simply because we know what a good time is for that distance. We used to use Krutz on push but his form is down at the moment, so we use the more consistent Gomez on push only. Other stables use other distances, which is fine, just so long as you stick to the one distance and gauge how good or bad your horse is from each workout.


4) Is it necessary to try random jockeys in training?

We don't, we rely on racing form to show us which jockeys are firing and which aren't. Also, it is much easier to isolate which add works best if you use the same jockey, one less variable to worry about. I have noticed with other stables claimers that other stables test different jockeys.

5) At what age do male horses fail to age like wine - when do they seem to decline?

That information is hidden away in the secret numbers when you create/breed a horse. Most seem to hold/peak their form at 4yo, and fade as 5yo or 6yo but this isn't always the case. We have Corn Beef Hash at 9yo still competitive in 50-100K Claimers.

6) Besides Fitness and Speed Meters, is their a third most important?

Those are the main two but I find that Strength comes into play 8f or more. Endurance and Stamina I rate less but you will sometimes notice that a horse runs a bad race because these latter meters are down.


7) If you have many horses in your stable, is it best to manage them by their fitness level - ie. train them once they reach an 82+ Fitness and rest them if they don't?

We train them every day, even after a race, usually an 11f lpg. For yearlings, we don't change the routine and most of them are ready to workout again in 2 or 3 days. If the meters go haywire, it's normally because the horse hasn't been vetted or been given a short run 2-4f which seems to screw up the meters.

8) Can a horse run better with jockey decides than a specific command and why?

I like to use Jockey Decides if it has drawn wide and there are certain jockeys that work well with that instruction but most of the time we use steady or push depending on the horse/distance.

9) As far as the CAL track vs The BEL track, is their anything the intermediate owner should know about races vs training?

We only train on the CAL track, no particular reason, as I said before, we know what times we are looking for. I seriously doubt that training on the BEL track would be an advantage or disadvantage. Whatever you're comfortable with. In races, depending on the horse, you may find that it races better at BEL than CAL or vice versa, using a different instruction.

10) Should an owner record each individual horses training meter increases or is there a better rule of thumb? - I always train on the BEL - longest distance - dirt. Is there a method to the madness on training? Should you train each horse individually? Should you multi-train all?

Whoa! This is a multi-question. We haven't found it necessary to record meter increases. Too many horses to do that. We strive for perfect meters but still race them if a couple aren't 100 without too much detriment. There is no absolute method as I have previously stated. If you are comfortable with that, then 11f dirt BEL is just as good as our 6f dirt CAL. We multi-train all the horses that we believe can handle an 11f lpg and most do. When the meters are a bit messy, i.e. an 11f lpg will push one or more meters between 95 and 99, we'll adjust the train e.g. 9f turf individually

Well, Paulo, I hope you can pick the bones out of that. Hopefully Jamie or Rory/Bill or any other experienced stable can answer what they do if they differ to the GLL Plan. And remember...

OH What a feeling!

N2

[Brown Star Stables]

Thanks for all the answers. I know I was asking alot. In #2 - I meant to say for breeding purposes - what should I look for in a broodmare?
Thanks again.

John, I am going to retire that Jumpin Jack Flash Filly that I claimed from you (Flasher). In your honor I will name her first breed after you "Jack Ass".

[Aardvark Stables]

Here's my take on the questions you've asked:

1) When do you retire a female horse? I've been told that they tend to decline after 4 years but some older Mares hold several records?

With female horses, probably the best thing to remember is do you want to use the horse as a breeder. If so, I generally like to get them to their 4yo campaign as it gives the filly time to improve and see how they match up at whatever level you think they are capable at. For example, my filly All American Plan is a 4yo that I'll probably use as a breeder. She can handle $30k runners, but doesn't hit the board at 50k or above. Basically, I'll hide her out in Starter Allowance $30k races for a few more times, but then she's off to breed. I suspect that if I run her back in claiming $30k races, she may get claimed. If you feel the horse is not in your breeding plans, then I don't worry about retiring them, as long as they are productive, until at least 60 races.

2) How important are the bloodlines of a horse vs. their speed rating? Obviously it's best to have both, but when you don't... Which one is more important?

I focus more in the class the horse has been running at first along with the pedigree. Basically, you have a better chance of getting consistent good horses out of stakes caliber horse than a $2k claimer. I would focus on class vs Speed figures, but they often go hand in hand. There are always exceptions, though. Check out Looky Loo, who is out of a nice sire, but the dam (LLs 401K Rollover) looked suspect. The intersting thing about the dam is that she has a high average purse per offpspring per race ($6300), but she only produced 3 of 10 that won multiple races, two of which were just in $2k claimers. My point, is that the weaker the runner, the less consistent they are in the breeding barn. That being said, there are always intruguing mares out there with very nice pedigrees, but that are low level claimers as runners. These can certainly be worth a look in the breeding barn, but I would try not to load up on these types. You probably end up with a lot of low level runners at best.

3) Initial training of yearlings should be held at what distance? At what distance should you use equipment? Should you try Steady vs Push at all distances?

Initailly, I use 6F for horses that I suspect are sprinters and 1 1/8m for horses that I suspect are routers (I'll also try 1 3/8m for routers if I have time and think they may like the marathon distances). Once I settle on a distance preference, then I try push and steady for routers before working thru the additions. For sprinters, I try push, but I use JD for working thru the equipment. My thinking (at this point as I'm always tweaking the works) is that I want to try the adds at the distance that I think I'll run the horse. I prefer, steady for routers, but use push if there is a noticable difference and use JD for spinrters as this is the instruction I use a bunch for sprints as the trip is very important in sprint races (nothing is more annoying then drawing the 10 post and watching your horse push 4wide into the turn and have no chance of winning). One thing that I think is often overlooked, are the split times at this distances as a horse that goes 22.00 44.80 and 1:09.1 may want a very different trip then a horse who has similar ending times, but slower split times. Also, I look at the split times when using equipment and often re-work a horse with a particular equipment if their splits are noticably faster.

4) Is it necessary to try random jockeys in training?

I will use the same jockeys thru the initial works, if I want to change the jockey (say the jockey is losing form), I'll run the new jockey at the "best" additions / distance / instruction and continue working from there. If you have a bunch of time, you can work thru the jockeys, but I watch the races to see who the hot jocks are. For me right now, I use Gomez in sprints and a mix between Gomez and Smith for routers.

5) At what age do male horses fail to age like wine - when do they seem to decline?

If I like a male, I alway run then into their 4yo campaign. I feel that the 3yos are in very tough vs their elders (the weight break is often not enough to offset the age and jockey selection differences), so if a horse has talent, I'm patient with them. Also, for 3yos I'll look to run them in against 3yo only races to see if they are competitive with their own age. As far as when they fade, I don't think age is as big a factor as the number of races are. You may see a horse become less consistent as they start getting between 60-80 races, but a horse like Corn Beef Hash is still effective at 9yo with 132 races under his belt.

6) Besides Fitness and Speed Meters, is their a third most important?

STR for routers and for sprinters I would say that END generally, but it may depend on the horse. I try to train to get all 100s, but I don't worry too much about having 98s or above.

7) If you have many horses in your stable, is it best to manage them by their fitness level - ie. train them once they reach an 82+ Fitness and rest them if they don't?

For me, I note the last day of rest and always give my horse a day off on the 4th day. Keep in mind, that racing doesn't count, so you can train a horse before or after a race if he was sitting around for a while. For the most part, with sprinters, I give them the day off after the races so their FIT rises above 82. For routers, I do the same for the most part, but you can train them right after they race if they had the day off before the race. Another thing to keep in mind, is that if the FIT gets stuck below 100, you can run a 2F Fast Rider Gallop to drop the FIT (once the rest of the meters are set) (NOTE: Keep in mind the horses last day off as often, you'll need to give them a rest when having to do this).

8) Can a horse run better with jockey decides than a specific command and why?

I think the set-up of the race is more important. Say you draw post 4 in a 6F sprint with speed horses to your inside, I'll almost always use JD as the jockey will often drop behind the speeders, but not to far off the pace. In sprints, unless I think the horse can clear using push I'll use JD (mostly) or steady (if the horse has shown the ability to close in workouts). Nothing is more annoying than watching your horse 3wide and pushing along and the jockey not settling trying to save some ground. For route races, once again the set-up is more important, but some horse can be plodders, so you may need to push and hope to find some position. These types can be annoying to train. If a horse is versitile then look at the post draw and where you think you want the horse to be placed. I rarely use JD in route races as they seem to drop too far back (almost like relax) and rarely seem to be close early. Also, keep in mind that speed is king here. Lots of trainers seem to push and front runners, never run into traffic. If I feel strongly that a horse prefers one instruction, I'll start off using that instruction to see how the horse runs, but the more flexible a horse is the easier it is to work with. It's tricky, but look at the horse and the race in total and decide from there.

9) As far as the CAL track vs The BEL track, is their anything the intermediate owner should know about races vs training?

I run my timed works at CAL until the end, when I try 7F BEL multi-train to figure out who's going into the Eliminator. CAL has slower finishing times, but the splits may be a bit faster at most distances.

10) Should an owner record each individual horses training meter increases or is there a better rule of thumb? - I always train on the BEL - longest distance - dirt. Is there a method to the madness on training? Should you train each horse individually? Should you multi-train all?

Recording each work can be very tiresome. It's useful when you first start, but the main numbers to keep in mind when working the meters are FIT of 82 and the most important SPD of 88. SPD of 88 or less, you can run a 2F LPG (Lead Pony Gallop) or SRG (Slow Rider Gallop)without your SPD getting to 95. The LPG moves the other meters less, while the SRG will move the STA/END/STR meters more (generally turf will move STR more and dirt will move STA more). SPD at 89 or higher, just run your 1 3/8m LPG. Personally, I train each horse individually and with 75-100 horses can take 20 minutes or so.

As far as multi-train, I use this late in the workout process with yearlings in order to "rank" my horses and see which ones may be good runners. Horses who run well in multi-works will often be the better horses (they have better heart) on the track. Note, in mult-train works the post are alphabetical, so Z horse may never get a good rail trip while A horse may always ride the rails, so don't read too much into the multi-train work if you liked the individual workouts. At the end of the day, a horse's true ability will appear on the racetrack.

Good luck,

Jamie

[Hendersons Stables]

great posts guys 2 thumbs up
James

[Brown Star Stables]

Yeah, thanks. Great information. Very appreciated.

[Wonder Where Stables]

Great Info...