Can a stable "pay for itself?

[Amadave Farms]

Hello, all:

It's Dave from Amadave Farms. I've been in DD for right at a year and, while I am beginning to feel I'm getting the hang of some things, I find myself in a love/hate relationship with the game. Due to health issues involving my wife, I'm a one and a half income household and often don't feel able to spend enough to keep up. I definitely feel I'm staying a year "behind the curve". A year ago when a horse running around 59 flat for 5k would have been very strong, my best (a Paddock Club freebie no less) would run 59.40. Now, I have horses than can run 58.68 and I'm still not competitive at the top level. I was in a race the other day in which the 5k turf record was set at 58.01 and the decent horse I had in finished second to last. A month ago when a little cash came in, I put in $100 (really shouldn't have) to breed a new group and kind of start over. Well, they're a little better class but not much and, to be totally truthful, if it were not for one very kind stable owner, I wouldn't even be this far along.

I felt all this background was needed to show why I'm asking what I'm asking. I noticed one stable that invested $89,000 DD dollars on last Saturday night's racing card alone and "won back" almost $93,000. Yes, that's a very successful stable but it's producing a "profit". So I'm interested in answers on these questions from fellow owners...if fellow owners are willing to give up this kind of classified information .

How much actual money are people spending on DD in, say, a month?

How many horses do other stables manage at one time?

How many new colts/fillies do you create in, say, a month?

Not to be redundant but CAN a stable pay for itself?

Is the key (a key?) to success being willing to just keep putting horses that are only competitive in low claimers IN the low claimers... in order to make more money...in order to breed more horses ... until maybe you get a good one?

OK, with that convoluted last question, that's enough from me.

Thanks for any input any other stable owners are willing to give. Oh, and if aforementioned very kind stable owner reads this, you've done more than enough. A man's gotta stand on his own eventually.

Dave
Amadave Farms

[Stine Stables]

Dave,

I am by far no expert here at DD and I've often wondered the same things. I can't really say how much I've spent in my three seasons here. I have not kept track of it but I suppose I could look at the account history and figure that out.....I don't pay too much attention to it....I just like the fun.

I keep around 30 horses at a time all at different levels, however I don't really have an open allowance or stakes level horse. I have horses that can run at open allowance levels but I feel lucky if they're in the money.

I don't think you can make much money or pay for yourself by only running low level claimers.

I've only bred 4 or 5 yearlings so far this season. Sold one for a profit and am training the others. Maybe two of those will amount to something.

I'm hoping that my claims and purchases of breeders will bring me a stakes level horse next season. However I won't be one of those stable who breed 20 or 30 yearlings a season.

[Vagabundo Stables]

Dave,

I've given a lot of thought to the issues you brought up over the past few months. As I knew that my situation would soon be to the point where it is. Here are my conclusions that I've come to so far.


A stable can turn a profit by:

A. A large or a prolonged investment if they play their cards right. Being incredibly selective with breeding and claiming, race selection etc all the things that most people here are still trying to accomplish on a day to day basis. Developing a good crop of breeders by any means necessary either developing the bloodlines yourself or through smart claiming to keep yourself in a good supply a decent breeders that enable you to breed good racers and when they are too old to turn a profit at racing let you breed to produce more good racers. All of which in time would allow a good stable owner to stand on its own.

B. If a stable were to attempt to turn a profit with a small investment. I believe it would require an incredible amount of patience, so much as going days maybe weeks at a time without running a horse and not giving into the temptation to run them. I know I'm guilty of looking at a horse in my stable saying hey good meters lets race him. Knowing that he prefers 7f and performs real good at a 10k claiming level. Well I hit the nominate button and there's only a 30k claimer at 7f or 6f at 20k. Eager to run him I enter him and sometimes i'm lucky and sometimes i'm not. I've often wondered if a stable could turn a profit being incredibly particular about the races they enter and then spend time waiting for the jackpot of a good claim that they could either run for a profit or turn around and immediately sell for a profit.


Probably not much help for the topic. I do believe it is however if a stable is smart they can turn a profit. I can't honestly say that I've gotten to that point but I'm pushing hard for it mostly out of necessity. If it had not been for the oppourtunity to get Pension Plan breeds then I would be approaching close to 3 months now with out a deposit. Those are looking like they will pay for themselves, but in that three months not counting the PP money I've managed to keep a steady number of runners, improve my breeding stable, have 10 yearlings for next season, a 30k withdrawel and still have 44k in available funds all on my last 100k deposit. It's getting to point where I believe the stable can stand on its own for the most part and maybe I can start working on making up for the 6-700 dollars (maybe a little more I'm afraid to look) that it took to get to the point where I made my last deposit.

Feel free to p.m me Dave or anyone that reads this if you like. I may not be much of an expert but I sure like to talk about it haha.

Brian

[Aardvark Stables]

Dave,

I think most stables, like myself, do not turn a profit. This is my forth season with DD and this season I've been able to spend more time with the game.

I think turning a profit requires the following (unless you have a stud stakes horse):

1. Good claims - The cost of horses is the biggest money sink in the game. By claiming a horse "at a discount" you minimize the risk and can still get a nice return. I have done well with most of my claims as I've turned a profit on most. I claimed Money Shock for $2K in February and he just won a $30K race. Also, I claimed Gettysburg Key, with the thoughts of breeding her, for $10K and she just won a $100K race. So there are always good horses out there at a discount. I'm fairly active at the claim box.

2. Putting horses in the right conditions - I don't mean that you need to win every race, but I do think you need to hit the board 50%+ of the time. A horse can make a nice living running 2nd or 3rd in Maiden / Allowance races, even if they don't win. Even if your horse runs 3rd you are able to at least recoup your entry fees. This is especially important at the higher Allowance and Stakes levels where the entry fees are much higher. For me, I try to put my horses in spots where either I'm confident they'll hit the board or I'm trying a new spot and want to protect my investment.

3. Patience - This should really be #1 - Patience is waiting for the ideal spot for your horse and not as Brian said running the horse over its head or at the wrong distance or surface. Also, patience is taking the time to figure out which equipment / surface is best for your horse in workouts. I would say that over half of the horses I purchase/claim improved with either of those changes. Going back to Gettysburg Key, she was never worked out with all of the equipment types. I worked her and found a change and she's running much better now.

4. Having your horses Claimed away from you - I think this is important fact of life in DD land. You need to be able to sell your horses for a profit. I have 50 horses in my stable right now, but only a handful are probably breeding material. The rest, need to be sold or else the need to be able to win enough money to offset their original cost. A $10K homebred ($11K with vet visit) needs to be able to win probably close to $50K in order to breakeven. For many horses that is not possible. Yesterday, I had The Letter W claimed off of me for $10K, but that was okay as I claimed her for $5K and she won the $10K race. That is profit that I'm able to roll back into the stable.

5. A good breeding shed - This is the part that I'm working on. If you notice the best horses are bred from the best stock. For me, I'm trying get $100k winnners or Allowance level runners in my stable to breed with. Keeping the breeding in-house will save a lot of money. There are always some nice values in the Public Stallions page, but there are a lot of very expensive stallions on the page. Reno is going for $50K a pop. The offspring have to be running with stakes runners to recoup that investment.

I would say that this is my 5 point plan to DD sucess. For me, I running at a slight deficit this season, but I feel the value of my stable is greatly improved.

Jamie

[Ginkamo Stables]

I'm pretty sure it's not possible.

I don't think it's possible in real life either. Unless they breed for free and sell all they breed.

Calumet killed Alydar for the insurance $$$. Someone sold Ferdinand to a Japanese family for food. Something similar happened to Exceller in Europe.

Breeding with a lot of people here who want good horses and are willing to pay for them may be a way. That is not the case here. We are still short of people.

I would be shocked if checked to see how much I've spent here. I'm having fun though. I've got a great bunch of breeders and runners and it looks like it will keep getting better, though I doubt I'll ever make a profit.

[Prozac]

My first season here I was very fortunate to have gotten a decent stakes runner from a created horse. During my first few seasons I invested less money than I am now. I'd probably be one of the stables grinding it out in the claiming game had I never gotten my stakes runner. Instead, I find my self breeding 25+ horses a season and spending way too much money in search of my "unicorn" to one day be competitive at the stakes level again. During this process I have ended up with a stable that is overall a higher class bunch but way more expensive to maintain (In my opinion). I currently house 30-50 runners. I've been as big as 80+ (too time consuming). I try to race 15-20 a week. In the past I've always made big deposits during 1yo breeding season (like most I'm sure) but with the 1yo breeding restriction lifted I breed'm when I can. If I've got the money, one a week. I've got 5 so far this season. I really have no advise as to making a profit. I don't make one. Perhaps next season a few of the more experienced owners should get together and put a small stable together. Start from scratch with X amount of money and try to finish on top. A weekly Blog updating current moneys, strategies, etc. Better yet two teams of owners competing with strict ground rules where the winning team gets all the horses accumulated by the losing team at the end of the season. Hmmmm.... That would be an interesting Blog to read each week and may be helpful to new stables as to how to manage their money and time. Food for thought.

[Hendersons Stables]

well I dont know how this is but I started on 2007-02-25 with a deposit of 80$ have not put another dime into it I have paid for my stable since and have clmed 11 horses bought 1 created horse breed 6 horses and have raced 238 times and still have credits in my account....so for me it would seem that I CAN run my stable off of winnings and I am sure I could keep it up.....but I am wanting to expand my stable so I am going to put some more money in it but dont believe I need to to keep my horses running like I said I'm am putting more in just to expand my stable
James

[Phyl Farm Inc.]

Probably not now but before all the changes I made a few bucks.

[Ryan Express]

Probably not now but before all the changes I made a few bucks.

Which changes removed a stable's ability to make a profit?

[Thunder Downunder]

It's a good question Dave but the answer is very complex.

I am now in my 7th season with D/D (2 real time years) and I guess can be considered a D/D veteran now. The game has changed so much from those early days (pre-breeding) when horses were only Created. This relied heavily on luck and if you wanted to be competitive you had to outlay large amounts to try and secure at least one Stakes runner. Prizemoney was 100% so a stable had the chance to keep costs down as long as its horses were at least placing. This is the era Sal is alluding to.

Claiming was introduced and the experienced stables had a distinct advantage over the newer ones, in that, they could perceive if there was value in a claim by either workout times, race times, wrong set-ups, poor jockey selection etc. Some smaller stables were lucky in the shake and just one good claim set them up for a solid D/D future. This hasn't changed and as others have stated, this is where you should be concentrating your efforts, if you have limited funds. However, you will have to 'acquire' more time to spend on the game. Successful claiming comes from an extensive knowledge of the game. Knowledge of classes is paramount to success.

Breeding is now the way to try and get a champion. It has taken a long time and a lot of money by all stables as a whole, but if you study the bloodlines, you can 'create' your own dynasty. I believe to better your chances of getting a top horse, you need to secure a top broodmare, not necessarily one that has been hugely successful on the track but one that has been fairly competitive but holds strong bloodlines. Like real life, there are no certainties, but it can give you an edge.

As I said, those early seasons were costly and most times you had to 'buy' your luck, so I looked at other avenues. Along with Sal and Pete, we formed Super Stable as an experiment with the prime goal... To become a top5 stable but within a budget. It wasn't as successful as I had hoped but it did lay the foundation for future success. After we decided to fold it up, I asked Nigel if I could partner him in Southern Cross, concentrating on the breeding and subsequent work of the offspring. Nigel suggested I take up a full half-share in GLL and SCR and we work together towards a common goal. It seems to be working this season as GLL is becoming a strong racing identity.

Horse-trading is another good way to keep costs down. Doing deals with other stables via breeding or maybe swapping a good colt for a good filly etc. To do this, you need to be active in the Forum or Chat Room.

In short, like anything in life, to be successful you have to devote ample time to it. Watch for changing trends, be proactive in the Forums, isolate the very best that your horses can do, analyze successes and failures and the answer to your question is... "yes it can"

Norm

[Phyl Farm Inc.]

The changes I'm talking about Ryan is when we use to enter horses for a set price and the purse would be always the same. Not sure if you played the game then. The real old vets will remember that when you could make a decent buck. At least I did.